 |
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
Author: Gary Hunter
Date: 11-28-2009 - 15:42
Rich Hunn wrote:
Rich, I have an old PE system map that shows what I'm talking about, but the resolution is not useful for micro-analysis. In 1911-14 PE took over all of the San Berdoo predecessor lines as well as connecting it all to the greater PE system by constructing the San Bernardino line through Rialto, Fontana, Upland, Claremont etc. SP always had trackage rights on most of the PE lines as well as having some of their own lines. Orange county is very complicated in this way. The "real" San Bernardino-Riverside line was (I believe) San Bernardino Valley Traction and used the 3rd st. (Berdoo) routing and the La Cadena routing to reach Orange Ave in Riverside. The Riverside bunch of local predecessor lines were all in the big deal that made them all PE. I think the Colton Ave routing between Berdoo and Colton was made after Huntington assumption and had to do more with the SP which was always a major shareholder in PE and explains why so much trackage rights were granted. The line from LA and route on Rialto Ave came after there had already been traction in the SB Valley. What I'm getting to is the route down 3rd past the ATSF depot, past the PE/SP depot, and continuing east on third is really more what you would call the PE main to Redlands. I know that the PE remained electrified until Oct 1951, and the line taken down by increments over the next year. Imagine my surprise though, when I found photos of trolleys being operated on San Bernardino Ave. and the Rialto Sunkist spur in 1951!! I knew the San Berdoo main was still electrified, but I had assumed that most of the peripheral 600 volt track around Berdoo went away at the time the Arrowhead Springs branch was de-electrified in 1943, along with most of the other sweeping changes that were made due to the fact that for all intents and purposes, passenger service on all the Berdoo valley lines was abandoned at that time. RPO service and a few fan trips were all that persisted until 1951. I have searched on my various trips back to my birth area to find ancient artifacts and have so far not sucessfully located the exact place where the 3rd st trackage diverged from street trackage to private ROW, but it does appear that it was a SW-NE diagonal for a couple of miles and straightened out a bit south and crossed the Santa Ana River bridge at La Quinto before turning east along San Bernardino Ave. The SP's line turned south immediately after crossing Waterman (Rialto Ave ends)and followed a path that took it eastward near San Bernardino Ave. where I suspect the two lines were sequenced. I believe the SP's track to Redlands was removed, as was the northern section of the PE at this time, whatever year. SP had the Crafton branch, which also had connectivity at one time to the SP Redlands. It was apparently just overkill. The trick is that the SP down Rialto Ave. looked just like typical PE street running trackage with silver painted phone and wig-wag poles. It would fool anyone (myself included) who didn't really dig into the books and maps. The thought that keeps coming to mind though is that if they had juice to the end of the line as indicated by the photos, that suggests that the line consolidation occurred after the 1200 and 600 volt catenary died in 1951, and the PE Redlands line must have had 600 volts all the way to the end. Did the E. Highlands have juice until '51? Did the Colton Ave. line have juice until'51? And as I mentioned in this thread, when was the last use of steam (0-6-0, 2-6-0) by the SP between Colton and Berdoo? I am just delighted that this thread seems to have sparked an interest in the fan base. And I can't state strongly enough how much I recommend the gentleman with the 8mm footage have that scanned to video and share this treasure.
Rich, I have an old PE system map that shows what I'm talking about, but the resolution is not useful for micro-analysis. In 1911-14 PE took over all of the San Berdoo predecessor lines as well as connecting it all to the greater PE system by constructing the San Bernardino line through Rialto, Fontana, Upland, Claremont etc. SP always had trackage rights on most of the PE lines as well as having some of their own lines. Orange county is very complicated in this way. The "real" San Bernardino-Riverside line was (I believe) San Bernardino Valley Traction and used the 3rd st. (Berdoo) routing and the La Cadena routing to reach Orange Ave in Riverside. The Riverside bunch of local predecessor lines were all in the big deal that made them all PE. I think the Colton Ave routing between Berdoo and Colton was made after Huntington assumption and had to do more with the SP which was always a major shareholder in PE and explains why so much trackage rights were granted. The line from LA and route on Rialto Ave came after there had already been traction in the SB Valley. What I'm getting to is the route down 3rd past the ATSF depot, past the PE/SP depot, and continuing east on third is really more what you would call the PE main to Redlands. I know that the PE remained electrified until Oct 1951, and the line taken down by increments over the next year. Imagine my surprise though, when I found photos of trolleys being operated on San Bernardino Ave. and the Rialto Sunkist spur in 1951!! I knew the San Berdoo main was still electrified, but I had assumed that most of the peripheral 600 volt track around Berdoo went away at the time the Arrowhead Springs branch was de-electrified in 1943, along with most of the other sweeping changes that were made due to the fact that for all intents and purposes, passenger service on all the Berdoo valley lines was abandoned at that time. RPO service and a few fan trips were all that persisted until 1951. I have searched on my various trips back to my birth area to find ancient artifacts and have so far not sucessfully located the exact place where the 3rd st trackage diverged from street trackage to private ROW, but it does appear that it was a SW-NE diagonal for a couple of miles and straightened out a bit south and crossed the Santa Ana River bridge at La Quinto before turning east along San Bernardino Ave. The SP's line turned south immediately after crossing Waterman (Rialto Ave ends)and followed a path that took it eastward near San Bernardino Ave. where I suspect the two lines were sequenced. I believe the SP's track to Redlands was removed, as was the northern section of the PE at this time, whatever year. SP had the Crafton branch, which also had connectivity at one time to the SP Redlands. It was apparently just overkill. The trick is that the SP down Rialto Ave. looked just like typical PE street running trackage with silver painted phone and wig-wag poles. It would fool anyone (myself included) who didn't really dig into the books and maps. The thought that keeps coming to mind though is that if they had juice to the end of the line as indicated by the photos, that suggests that the line consolidation occurred after the 1200 and 600 volt catenary died in 1951, and the PE Redlands line must have had 600 volts all the way to the end. Did the E. Highlands have juice until '51? Did the Colton Ave. line have juice until'51? And as I mentioned in this thread, when was the last use of steam (0-6-0, 2-6-0) by the SP between Colton and Berdoo? I am just delighted that this thread seems to have sparked an interest in the fan base. And I can't state strongly enough how much I recommend the gentleman with the 8mm footage have that scanned to video and share this treasure.
| Subject | Written By | Date/Time (PST) |
|---|---|---|
 San Bernardino (SP)
|
Sunset Express | 11-27-2009 - 06:41 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
Charles Terrass | 11-27-2009 - 07:52 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
Bill Root | 11-27-2009 - 08:58 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
Mike Root | 11-27-2009 - 13:41 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
Bill Root | 11-27-2009 - 13:56 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
Mike Root | 11-27-2009 - 14:19 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
Steven D. Johnson | 11-27-2009 - 16:32 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
Gary Hunter | 11-27-2009 - 17:29 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
SLOCONDR | 11-27-2009 - 18:34 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
Rich Hunn | 11-27-2009 - 19:28 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
Mike Root | 11-27-2009 - 21:46 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
Steven D. Johnson | 11-27-2009 - 22:12 |
|
San Bernardino (UP??)
|
unk diego | 11-27-2009 - 22:54 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (UP??)
|
Mike Root | 11-28-2009 - 07:53 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (UP??)
|
Bill Root | 11-28-2009 - 08:33 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (UP??)
|
Mike | 11-28-2009 - 11:23 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (UP??)
|
Bill Root | 11-28-2009 - 12:03 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (UP??)
|
Rich Hunn | 11-28-2009 - 13:39 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (UP??)
|
Gary Hunter | 11-28-2009 - 14:24 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
Gary Hunter | 11-28-2009 - 14:10 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
Gary Hunter | 11-28-2009 - 14:00 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
Rich Hunn | 11-28-2009 - 14:42 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP) |
Gary Hunter | 11-28-2009 - 15:42 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
Mike | 11-28-2009 - 16:53 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
Rich Hunn | 11-28-2009 - 19:21 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP) Interurbans Special No. 61
|
Steven D. Johnson | 11-28-2009 - 22:42 |
|
Excerpt from Interurbans Special No. 61
|
Steven D. Johnson | 11-28-2009 - 23:24 |
|
Re: Excerpt from Interurbans Special No. 61
|
Gary Hunter | 11-28-2009 - 23:59 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP) Interurbans Special No. 61
|
Mike | 11-29-2009 - 10:50 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
Gary Hunter | 11-28-2009 - 23:40 |
|
Re: San Bernardino (SP)
|
Steven D. Johnson | 11-29-2009 - 13:37 |
|
Re: Arrowhead service- spoke too soon
|
Steven D. Johnson | 11-29-2009 - 16:03 |
|
Re: Arrowhead service- spoke too soon
|
Rich Hunn | 11-29-2009 - 16:27 |