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Re: Maroons
Author: OldPoleBurner
Date: 12-17-2009 - 11:44
> Now (hopefully) back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Not so fast there, Magilla. You really think you can come onto a railroad forum, and drop your political bombs gorilla style, then we will all must remain nice and civil - and silent. Lately, what passes for civil seems to be remaining silent, never openly expressing a contrary opinion in public - and certainly it must never be done with any dynamics of any sort.
Well k, 2nd off - its Maroon, not moron, in many quarters. But narrow minded folks might not know that.
3rdly, Activist politicians of any sort - almost always do harm, like a bull in a china shop. Even if they meant well, they generally leave things worse than they were. That's because they are mostly motivated by an unmitigated greed for power - and not by principle.
4thly, Who are these so-called "Extremists" that you think are so "paranoid" and "uncivil". I've yet to meet one. But I have met a lot of intolerant (therefore uncivil) folks such as yourself, with their incessant labeling of people they disagree with.
TAKE YOUR ONE WAY POLITICS SOMEWHERE ELSE - THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
As for the PTC technology mandated by those activist politicians, it is an unmitigated disaster in the making; precisely because there was no compromise at all, not even an hours worth of reasoned discussion. When has there been lately - just pass the damn bill - don't even read it. Reminds me of a used car salesmen pressing you to hurry up and sign - no need to read the contract - just sign - trust me - just sign!
But what we had was just a bunch of know nothing politicians forcing technical decisions down our throats without regard to the facts, nor any consequence whatever. And why - bought and paid for lobbying on the part of certain vendors of the "Preferred Technology" (sounds a bit classically fascist to me), even lobbying the NTSB. Politicians did it, not because it was right, not because it would save lives - because it will do no such thing. But only because they got paid - now go compromise with that will ya!
Indeed, through nearly two centuries of hard, bloody, painful experience, the industry has learned that relying on any device for safety, ALWAYS lulls the user into a sense of security, usually negating some amount of personal effort.
Therefore, the device itself must be designed so as to not be prone to its own hazardous error. When such a PTC machine booboos, you will be just as dead as if some human manually ran the red. And it is certain - it will happen; unless PTC devices adhere to a much higher technical standard than the mandated technology can currently provide. AS the mandate now stands, there will be more probability of accident than before.
We're working on it, but having spent thousands of hours of professional effort on such technologies, I can say say empirically, that it ain't ready for prime time, for anything but very limited application. Most professional signal engineers I have spoken with across the country seem to echo that perspective.
And yes, the railroad and transit industry has been working for years to improve and add upon existing train control methods. The AAR, FRA, FTA, and ARPA, have all sponsored much experimentation in this area. ARPA has funded much of this work with federal grants - to the tune of hundreds of millions already. The railroads are in no need of any specific technology mandates - especially ones requiring "non-vital" solutions to safety critical applications.
What was needed was to correct the also stupid law of the fifties, that mandated cab-signaling / ATP above 79mph. The unintended consequence there, was that most railroads opted to lower maximum speeds to the 79mph, rather then installing much of anything; destroying any chance that passenger trains would ever successfully compete with the super-highway; while still not providing any added protection!
The new mandate should simply have required some sort of "Vital" signal aspect enforcement. Who cares how, as long as it forces a sure stop PRIOR to passing any red, for any track with any speed above 35mph (25 in populated areas). Then require a mileage percentage per year installation schedule, commencing immediately. Affordable "Vital" technology to do this already exists, as does the required track hardware in many cases. Where the required hardware is already there, it's merely an issue of re-configuring - even less costly.
Remember, affordable projects get done; whereas ones costing more than the track itself, will never happen - mandate or not. You can't get blood out of a turnip - even if you are an omnipotent politician. One more reason this mandate, as it was written, was ill conceived as well as corrupt.
But alas - as things are now - SEVERAL BILLIONS in new hardware will be needed - all purchased of course, from the vendor favored by those exceptionally intelligent politicians we all elected!
OPB
Not so fast there, Magilla. You really think you can come onto a railroad forum, and drop your political bombs gorilla style, then we will all must remain nice and civil - and silent. Lately, what passes for civil seems to be remaining silent, never openly expressing a contrary opinion in public - and certainly it must never be done with any dynamics of any sort.
Well k, 2nd off - its Maroon, not moron, in many quarters. But narrow minded folks might not know that.
3rdly, Activist politicians of any sort - almost always do harm, like a bull in a china shop. Even if they meant well, they generally leave things worse than they were. That's because they are mostly motivated by an unmitigated greed for power - and not by principle.
4thly, Who are these so-called "Extremists" that you think are so "paranoid" and "uncivil". I've yet to meet one. But I have met a lot of intolerant (therefore uncivil) folks such as yourself, with their incessant labeling of people they disagree with.
TAKE YOUR ONE WAY POLITICS SOMEWHERE ELSE - THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
As for the PTC technology mandated by those activist politicians, it is an unmitigated disaster in the making; precisely because there was no compromise at all, not even an hours worth of reasoned discussion. When has there been lately - just pass the damn bill - don't even read it. Reminds me of a used car salesmen pressing you to hurry up and sign - no need to read the contract - just sign - trust me - just sign!
But what we had was just a bunch of know nothing politicians forcing technical decisions down our throats without regard to the facts, nor any consequence whatever. And why - bought and paid for lobbying on the part of certain vendors of the "Preferred Technology" (sounds a bit classically fascist to me), even lobbying the NTSB. Politicians did it, not because it was right, not because it would save lives - because it will do no such thing. But only because they got paid - now go compromise with that will ya!
Indeed, through nearly two centuries of hard, bloody, painful experience, the industry has learned that relying on any device for safety, ALWAYS lulls the user into a sense of security, usually negating some amount of personal effort.
Therefore, the device itself must be designed so as to not be prone to its own hazardous error. When such a PTC machine booboos, you will be just as dead as if some human manually ran the red. And it is certain - it will happen; unless PTC devices adhere to a much higher technical standard than the mandated technology can currently provide. AS the mandate now stands, there will be more probability of accident than before.
We're working on it, but having spent thousands of hours of professional effort on such technologies, I can say say empirically, that it ain't ready for prime time, for anything but very limited application. Most professional signal engineers I have spoken with across the country seem to echo that perspective.
And yes, the railroad and transit industry has been working for years to improve and add upon existing train control methods. The AAR, FRA, FTA, and ARPA, have all sponsored much experimentation in this area. ARPA has funded much of this work with federal grants - to the tune of hundreds of millions already. The railroads are in no need of any specific technology mandates - especially ones requiring "non-vital" solutions to safety critical applications.
What was needed was to correct the also stupid law of the fifties, that mandated cab-signaling / ATP above 79mph. The unintended consequence there, was that most railroads opted to lower maximum speeds to the 79mph, rather then installing much of anything; destroying any chance that passenger trains would ever successfully compete with the super-highway; while still not providing any added protection!
The new mandate should simply have required some sort of "Vital" signal aspect enforcement. Who cares how, as long as it forces a sure stop PRIOR to passing any red, for any track with any speed above 35mph (25 in populated areas). Then require a mileage percentage per year installation schedule, commencing immediately. Affordable "Vital" technology to do this already exists, as does the required track hardware in many cases. Where the required hardware is already there, it's merely an issue of re-configuring - even less costly.
Remember, affordable projects get done; whereas ones costing more than the track itself, will never happen - mandate or not. You can't get blood out of a turnip - even if you are an omnipotent politician. One more reason this mandate, as it was written, was ill conceived as well as corrupt.
But alas - as things are now - SEVERAL BILLIONS in new hardware will be needed - all purchased of course, from the vendor favored by those exceptionally intelligent politicians we all elected!
OPB
