Re: Milwaukee and Vancouver BC info request I posted to Milwaukee lists and came up with this info:

Posted by: "Allan R. Mitchell" shelteral@hotmail.com railfanal

Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:00 pm (PST)

Almo, If you can get this:

The Milwaukee's proposal for Vancouver BC was part of several proposals,
which may have never progressed past the proposal stage, and due GN and CPR
being already in place (with competing proposals also coming in at that time
from the Canadian Northern for access routes), seems to have died on the
vine over crossing the Fraser River and then having a simnple access route
into Vancouver. The most obvious partner for the Milwaukee would have been
BC Electric (later BC Hydro, Southern BC etc), but BC Electric depended upon
using the GN Fraser Bridge, and while the GN may been willing (or
politically pursuaded) to work with a local interurban RR, they may not have
been well-disposed to grant rights to their bridge to a trans-continental
competitor. Once across the Fraser though, access routes into Vancouver
were already quite limited - again GN had the New West to Vancouver direct
line laid in north of Burnaby lake, The CPR had both the Burrard Inlet shore
and the southern route along the Fraser River (which line the BC Electric
shared use of for their interurban and freight route). If the Milwaukee
would have been seeking to further use a partnership with BC Electric, they
would have had to then either also conlcude terms with the CPR to use the
long way around via the Fraser river, or use the Burnaby Lake or Central
Park Interurban lines - both of which had some very harsh grades on
sections, and both of which would have left the Milwaukee to traverse
several miles of either street trackage - or back to trying to connect
across GN or CPR trackage to get to the proposed Kitselano terminal.

Once at Kitselano, they would be using a site that has worked very well for
a recreational beach for over a hundred years - but as a site for mooring
even large vessels is poorly protected from westerlies and would have been
quite undesireable as a dock - note that despite the CPR kits branch and BC
Electric connections, no-one seriously tried to build a dock there beyond a
bit of gyppo logging in the last century, the Coast Guard dock (where they
moored mainly on the protected east sides) or, as the Maritime Museam and
further west, yacht club do - protect with a rock/fill mole or breakwater.
Plans I have seen did not extend much past the Kits point area though -
certainly not as far as Spanish Banks 4 to 5 miles to the west.

The Milwaukee would have been connecting with the BC Electiric at Sumas,
coming up from Bellingham (where they come in by barge) on the BB &BC liine
they had bought. The BB & BC had chartered/proposed building eastward for
some kind of trans-continental connection (many early regional railroads had
grand plans) but their line never progressed eastward beyond serving some
mines along the route towards.. Mt Baker - and the cordillera of the Skagit
headwaters lay beyond that. Milwaukee did have a line into Everett, and may
have hoped to connect through to Bellingham and then, if the Fraser crossing
problem. Whether they wouyld have gone for a SECOND Columbia river crossing
and all that a route from Spokane to Bellingham would have entailed.. well
I'm only a third of the way into Stan Johnson's really enjoyable (and
absorbing) work on the construction of the Milwaukee Line west - and I would
credit the Milwaukee's planners with plenty of sense to have seen what would
have been the optimum route they could obtain west (Snoqualmie pass
certainly is superior to anything in the Mt Baker / Skagit area) and
consideration of Vancouver was ever at best a branch.

However - for what one may choose to MODEL, (my choice is Sumas with its 4
interchanging railroads) - the prospect of a Milwaukee terminal in Vancouver
is certainly something plausible if you don't mind bending history a bit.

rgds
Al Mitchell
(Born & railfanning in Vancouver ever since Dad took me down to watch the
CPR 3671 chuff past with the last scheduled steam freight, and a Milwaukee
Fan since a trip to Tacoma gave me an introduction to ... ELECTRIC
locomotives - BIG Electric locomotives... an impression that still hasn't
worn off never mind how many years later.)

>From: "Donovan Gray"
>Reply-To: MILW@yahoogroups.com
>To: MILW@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [MILW] Milwaukee and Vancouver BC
>Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 17:25:57 -0000
>
>Posted on the Altamont board:
>
>Ill-Fated Ideas
>Author: almo
>Date: 08-23-2007 - 22:29
>
>
>I'm reading a book that's about Vancouver, BC, from it's infancy-
>right up to today. It's great to read about the city you've grown up
>in. It contains a lot of maps including a downtown freeway (that
>still doesn't exist), and the UBC Endowment Lands that were to be a
>massive subdivision for mega-houses. Although only a few projects
>came to being built, the ideas that would have shaped the future
>of "my city" would have had a major effect on it's neighbourhoods
>today.
>
>The Milwaukee Road was planning to extend to Vancouver in the early
>1900's. The yards were to be built opposite the downtown core,
>across False Creek where the Planetarium stands today. With the
>railroad, a massive 40+ ship berth (ships were smaller back then)
>was going to be built, and warehouses would have engulfed the entire
>Spanish Banks and Point Grey areas, making the West (richer
>neighbourhoods) side of Vancouver the industrial mecca. This was all
>because of the expected increase in ship traffic from the Panama
>Canal.
>
>Does anyone know what kind of route the Milwaukee Road was planning
>on taking to get here? Would they rely on a slower North-South line
>to Seattle, and route East on Snoqualmie? Or would they go on a
>direct route a'la Avery-Ellensburg, where it's a rollercoaster ride
>and no cities to generate traffic along the way? My bet is the
>latter.
>
>
>almo
>
>
>
>The Milwaukee Road Group - [groups.yahoo.com]
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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5c.

Re: Milwaukee and Vancouver BC

Posted by: "Dean Ogle" cjn253@shaw.ca cjn253

Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:38 pm (PST)

List -

I have a booklet, apparently issued upon the opening of the original Second
Narrows Bridge across Burrard Inlet, at Vancouver BC, on November 7, 1925,
which states:

"Four transcontinental railway lines have running rights over the Second
Narrows Bridge, namely, the Canadian Pacific, Canadian National, Great
Northern, and the Chicago, Milwaukee & St Paul."

Dean Ogle

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5d.

Re: Milwaukee and Vancouver BC

Posted by: "eknol@aol.com" eknol@aol.com geneknol

Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:43 pm (PST)

The Milwaukee did have political and business interests in British Columbia.
Some years ago I looked through a survey file at the Milwaukee Public
Library in connection with a line survey that extended from the Missoula area north
and roughly parallel with the Flathead River into British Columbia. Someone
on the west coast obtained BC government approval allowing the surveyors
permission to enter into BC. I can't recall the name of the destination in BC but
as I recall, the mines did get accessed by the CP. I made a bunch of notes
at the time and typed up a few pages of material from the notes but a few
weeks ago I made a search for them but didn't find them. The library file had a
number of Western Union messages sent in code from a Great Northern station.
The file contained the coded message along with the uncoded translation. Along
with the coal in BC, they also had an eye on the timber in the Kalispell
area. Gene Knol


-----Original Message-----
From: cjn253@shaw.ca
Reply-to: MILW@yahoogroups.com
To: MILW@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 8/24/2007 7:38:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time
Subj: RE: [MILW] Milwaukee and Vancouver BC

List -

I have a booklet, apparently issued upon the opening of the original Second
Narrows Bridge across Burrard Inlet, at Vancouver BC, on November 7, 1925,
which states:

"Four transcontinental railway lines have running rights over the Second
Narrows Bridge, namely, the Canadian Pacific, Canadian National, Great
Northern, and the Chicago, Milwaukee & St Paul."

Dean Ogle

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
[discover.aol.com]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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5e.

Re: Milwaukee and Vancouver BC

Posted by: "Ken Secrest" rmdive70@yahoo.com rmdive70

Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:09 pm (PST)


--- eknol@aol.com wrote:

> Some years ago I looked through a survey file at the Milwaukee Public
> Library in connection with a line survey that extended from the
> Missoula area north and roughly parallel with the Flathead River
> into British Columbia.

There was a two page article about this, in the December, 1991 issue of
Trains. Also, copies of blueprints for this r-o-w are available from
Selby's in Billings.

Ken S.