Re: Milwaukee and Vancouver BC

Posted by: "Allan R. Mitchell" shelteral@hotmail.com railfanal

Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:02 pm (PST)

Dean;

Now THAT is an interesting thing - I know by Helmut W that by the 1970's
Milwaukee was down to 500' of trackage or rights into Canada on the CPR at
Huntingdon. But maybe they HAD negotiated something with the CPR to come up
to Mission and then be able to get into Vancouver on the CPR line... Whether
any Milwaukee train ever did though...

Probably some info buried really deep in CPR archives. Maybe when the
current civic strike is over it would be worth checking further into
Vancouver's archives.

Would you perchance have a scan of this brochure I could get?

rgds
Al Mitchell

2b.

Re: Milwaukee and Vancouver BC

Posted by: "Allan R. Mitchell" shelteral@hotmail.com railfanal

Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:35 pm (PST)

Gene;

The Milwaukee did more than survey for that line - on the US side they
acquired some property which was going to be needed to put the line through
that I think a post (should be in the group archives) metioned the
`successor corp' had later sold or just recently sold off.

Those deposits are still there of course - The Flathead valley has not yet
been mined in the area the Milwaukee was looking to connect to (CP is
reaching mines a bit north and west) and now those deposts are the subject
of some intense politicking between those who would like to see some mining
and those who only want to maintain the land to support the pine-beetle
population.

On the Milwaukee Modellers group a thread of speculation was going on some
plausible modern/current Milwaukee scenarios and exploiting those deposits
certainly would have / could have been a boon to the Lines West ... kind of
thing that gets me wondering just how much POTENTIAL revenue sources the
Milwaukee could have exploited. I don't profess to be fully conversant with
the nuances and finer points of some of the excellent explanations on the
economic side that have been a benefit of following this group - but I have
come to see there is at very least those whose interests were making money
WITH a railroad and those whose interest were limited to making money FROM
the railroad. Where those with a view to making money with the railroad
have at least had some influence, plans get made and actions follow that
sees developments. The making money FROM however... may get some profits
eventually from selling off land as assets - but that big possiblity of
years of good consistent revenue for both mining interest and transportation
(one group interested in the Flathead valley wanted to use slurry pipelines)
will eventually benefit someone else who does more than just liquidate for
dividends.

...or maybe someday the CP will extend south from the Crowsnest line into
there...can sometimes make for interesting twists when you read some recent
financial/business articles written currently by those who have no idea what
has gone on before or been attempted in the past.

rgds
Al Mitchell


4b.

Re: Milwaukee and Vancouver BC

Posted by: "michaelsol2000" kimsol@bigsky.net michaelsol2000

Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:13 am (PST)

--- In MILW@yahoogroups.com, eknol@... wrote:
> The Milwaukee did have political and business interests in British
Columbia. Some years ago I looked through a survey file at the
Milwaukee Public Library in connection with a line survey that
extended from the Missoula area north and roughly parallel with the
Flathead River into British Columbia.
----------------------------------------
Gene, I haven't had a chance to look in the MPL for anything, but
here are some notes that Jerry Masters and I put together on that
line. We have since decided that the references to the Anaconda
Smelters were not a probable destination for this coal, and we are
still trying to figure out what they planned to do with it:

At the end of 1909, a new factor entered the Milwaukee's thinking.
North of the Canadian border, near the west side of Glacier National
Park, massive coal reserves near Crow's Nest Pass had become
available from the Canadian government. The general manager of the
Burlington Lines, F.E. Ward, had inadvertently intercepted telegrams
in early 1912 regarding negotiations between Worth Belden Cranbrook
and "Milwaukee people" regarding "about one hundred sections of coal,
iron, and timber claims" and forwarded these on to Louis Hill. [Night
Telegram, F.E. Ward to Sir Donald Mann, January 4, 1912. Sir Donald
wired back to "F.E. Ward," general manager of the Burlington that he
wasn't interested. Western Union Telegram, January 5, 1912. Ward
wired back, "there must be some mistake as I have not written or
wired you." Telegram, January 6, 1912. Sir Donald sent a copy of the
telegram he had received. "Sir Donald asks me to forward to you the
attached lettergram which he received ... under the impression that
it was from you ...". Letter, January 7, 1912. In turn, Ward sent
these on to Louis Hill, "I assume the F.E. Ward who sent him the
original message is a man of that name who used to live in Spokane
and who had mining interests in Rossland. Possibly the information as
to what the Milwaukee people are said to be thinking may be of some
interest to you." Letter, Ward to Hill, January 12, 1912. [GNA, File
4458 ????].]

The Milwaukee Road had been looking at the leases since 1909 and had
probably already acquired them by this time. [Board of Director
Minutes, Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Railway Co., October 28, 1909.
Milwaukee Public Library, authorizing acquisition of the coal
leases.] This coal was not the mere commercial grade bituminous
available at Roundup, rather it was a high quality metallurgical
grade bituminous coal, as much as five billion tons of it. [Michael
Sol, "Canadian Coal, U.S. Oil Imperil Montana Wilderness," AUDUBON
Magazine, November, 1976].

The Anaconda smelters at Great Falls and Anaconda would be hungry
customers. The coal they were using came via the Great Northern and
Northern Pacific Railways. With the Northern Securities imbroglio
still ringing in its ears, the Milwaukee could transfer enormous
tonnages to its lines, a further injury to Morgan and Hill.

Hill had been locked in a furious battle with the Canadian Pacific
for lines into the Kootenay region and it had become a personal
battleground between James J. Hill and Canadian Pacific's W.C. Van
Horne. Ronald Howard Meyer, "The Evolution of Railways in the
Kootenays," Master's Thesis (unpublished), University of British
Columbia, 1970].

After Van Horne became Chairman in 1899, his assistant William
Shaughnessy carried on the battle as the new President of the
Canadian Pacific. When Milwaukee looked into the Kootenay coal
country, it appears to have been involved in the South East Kootenay
Ry Co., which was organized originally in 1898 to build from Fort
Steele, British Columbia to "a point at least five miles from the
United States boundary." In 1906, it was reincorporated to build
specifically from the Flathead River on the international boundary to
McGillivray on the Canadian Pacific. A time extension to act upon its
charter was granted in 1909 and again in 1912. These dates coincided
with Milwaukee activity in the area. [[Robert Dorman, A Statutory
History of the Steam and Electric Railways of Canada: 1836-1937
(Ottawa: J.O. Patenaude, I.S.O., 1938). The Alberta Oil, Coal and
Wheat Ry Co. was incorporated in 1906, and renamed the "Pincher
Creek, Cardston and Montana Ry. Co." in 1909 and renamed the Alberta
Pacific Ry. Co. In 1910. Milwaukee Road may have interests in these].

The apparent cooperation of the Milwaukee and the Canadian Pacific
was perhaps not remarkable, CP Chairman Van Horne, CP President
Shaughnessy, and Milwaukee President Albert Earling had all worked
together and learned railroading as employees of the Milwaukee Road
under legendary railroad financier Alexander Mitchell and his
whirlwind chief Operating Officer, S.S. Merrill. [R.G. MacBeth, The
Romance of the Canadian Pacific Railway (Toronto: The Ryerson Press,
1924) p. 75. Shaughnessy obituary, Seattle Daily Times, December 11,
1923. See, also, Sol Manuscript, "History of the Milwaukee Road."]

By the Fall of 1912, Milwaukee survey crews had located a line from
Bonner, Montana up the Big Blackfoot and Swan Rivers to Kalispell and
up the North Fork of the Flathead River to the Canadian border,
[Letter, Hervin to Hogeland, October 15, 1912. [GNA, ???]. and to the
proposed South East Kootenay Railroad, and eventually to the Canadian
Pacific. [Great Falls Leader "Milwaukee Plans Within Great Falls,"
September 19, 1912. "It is hoped to start next year on the Missoula-
Kalispell-Fernie line. The Canadian Pacific will be let into Montana
over Milwaukee rails from Fernie." [GNA .. ???].]

On July 24, 1917, the Board of Directors of Milwaukee Road
entertained the following discussion: "the question of purchasing the
Crown grants for a part of the coal lands heretofore occupied under
Government leases by the Kootenay Amalgamated Oil & Coal Co., the
stock of which is owned by the St. Paul [Milwaukee Railroad] Co. was
submitted to the Executive Committee and on motion, duly seconded, it
was RESOLVED that the leases for the entire property should be
allowed to lapse that no further expenditure should be incurred." [
Minutes, Executive Committee, CM&St.P, July 24, 1917, Milwaukee
Public Library].

Best regards, Michael Sol

4c.

Re: Milwaukee and Vancouver BC

Posted by: "DR Stinson" dano@mt.net steeplecab

Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:35 pm (PST)

> here are some notes that Jerry Masters and I put together on
> that line. We have since decided that the references to the
> Anaconda smelters were not a probable destination for this
> coal, and we are still trying to figure out what they planned to
> do with it:

Michael -
I wouldn't discount the Anaconda Company's demand for coal at that time.
Recall that floataion concentrating of the ore hadn't been invented yet and
a great deal of the smelting process involved roasting. Also keep in mind
the current events in 1909. Hauser Dam had failed the previous summer and
much of the power in Butte was still generated by a coal-fired steam plant.
This was also very likely why John D. Ryan was compelled to create what
later became the Montana Power Company.

Dan Stinson
Helena, Montana