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Re: 4 hours to charge Muni battery but, or even 15 minutes on fast charge, is not the problem? What is the economically useful operating range (car, bus, choo-choo?)
Author: BOB2
Date: 12-06-2022 - 01:22
That Bus Guy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Eveready cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So have these buses proven themselves
> elsewhere?
>
> Many North American transit systems are currently
> operating. Several are undertaking very
> large-scale (as in hundreds of buses) electric bus
> initiatives.
>
> Four hours is the time it takes to recharge bus
> batteries using a slow charger.
>
> Fast chargers can replenish most of the batteries'
> charge in 10 - 15 minutes.
The economic of battery buses are not about charging times (as buses charged overnight by slow charging are parked anyhow), and can be fast charged in fifteen-thirty minues on a fast charger.
The economic utility/viability of battery powered vehicles of all sizes depends on the operating range and operating time per charge (vehicle operating reliability and availability). If a bus can only run four hours on a charge, that is a problem.
Battery life cycle and replacement cost is the other key factor in electric vehicle economics (cost per mile life cycle cost). Is the cost of replacing battery packs cheaper on a per miles/hours basis, than say rebuilding a natureal gas or diesel engine?
I was around for the methanol fiasco scam of the late eighties and early nineties, where some of us cynics referred to methanol as the "fool of the future" ("fuel of the future"???). If you thought it was a good idea to take perfectedly good CNG and reduce the BTU potential by 60% in a highly CO2 producing process to convert it to methanol, that did not have BTU content to get a transit bus actually "up the hills" (even the puny ones in downtown LA), was a good idea, then it was a great idea (primarily for the sole major foreign manufacturer who spent millions lobbying for methanol mandates in California back then).
I also watched the first fuel cell transit vehicle at SunLine Transit (the tractor trailer "bus" they used for service over the hill to Riverside for the Metrolink oonnection, powered by "off-peak" wind made hydrogen back in 2002, in the Coachella Valley. As was noted above, this technology has many potential cost saving economic benefits for heavy duty vehicles in range and ease of refueling over battery technologies.
Elon seems to give short shrift and hates fuel cells for a reason, they are becoming much more competitive, and if we can get enough cheap hydrogen, it gives them far greater potential economically useful range, than battery operated "stored" power heavy duty vehicles.
Redlands will be the first test in CA with a fuel cell powered electic train, which will be a 100% zero emission rail vehicle not requiring expensive electrification costs. The off coast wind resources and some of these new third generation higher efficiency "non" blade wind turbines, and the same principles applied to wave generated electrical generation would provide all of the clean power to produce "off peak" hydrogen from sea water, that we'd need to power a fuel cell vehicle fleet.
With that, we save the planet, still have the freedom of mobility our modern technologies have given all of us peasants, and some now powerful folks, like oil companies with monopoly control to gouge us, murdering Russian dictator's, and Saudi's could just go "f##k" themselves.... And, the economic and environmental battery recharging, range, replacement, and disposal cost issues are largely solved.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Eveready cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So have these buses proven themselves
> elsewhere?
>
> Many North American transit systems are currently
> operating. Several are undertaking very
> large-scale (as in hundreds of buses) electric bus
> initiatives.
>
> Four hours is the time it takes to recharge bus
> batteries using a slow charger.
>
> Fast chargers can replenish most of the batteries'
> charge in 10 - 15 minutes.
The economic of battery buses are not about charging times (as buses charged overnight by slow charging are parked anyhow), and can be fast charged in fifteen-thirty minues on a fast charger.
The economic utility/viability of battery powered vehicles of all sizes depends on the operating range and operating time per charge (vehicle operating reliability and availability). If a bus can only run four hours on a charge, that is a problem.
Battery life cycle and replacement cost is the other key factor in electric vehicle economics (cost per mile life cycle cost). Is the cost of replacing battery packs cheaper on a per miles/hours basis, than say rebuilding a natureal gas or diesel engine?
I was around for the methanol fiasco scam of the late eighties and early nineties, where some of us cynics referred to methanol as the "fool of the future" ("fuel of the future"???). If you thought it was a good idea to take perfectedly good CNG and reduce the BTU potential by 60% in a highly CO2 producing process to convert it to methanol, that did not have BTU content to get a transit bus actually "up the hills" (even the puny ones in downtown LA), was a good idea, then it was a great idea (primarily for the sole major foreign manufacturer who spent millions lobbying for methanol mandates in California back then).
I also watched the first fuel cell transit vehicle at SunLine Transit (the tractor trailer "bus" they used for service over the hill to Riverside for the Metrolink oonnection, powered by "off-peak" wind made hydrogen back in 2002, in the Coachella Valley. As was noted above, this technology has many potential cost saving economic benefits for heavy duty vehicles in range and ease of refueling over battery technologies.
Elon seems to give short shrift and hates fuel cells for a reason, they are becoming much more competitive, and if we can get enough cheap hydrogen, it gives them far greater potential economically useful range, than battery operated "stored" power heavy duty vehicles.
Redlands will be the first test in CA with a fuel cell powered electic train, which will be a 100% zero emission rail vehicle not requiring expensive electrification costs. The off coast wind resources and some of these new third generation higher efficiency "non" blade wind turbines, and the same principles applied to wave generated electrical generation would provide all of the clean power to produce "off peak" hydrogen from sea water, that we'd need to power a fuel cell vehicle fleet.
With that, we save the planet, still have the freedom of mobility our modern technologies have given all of us peasants, and some now powerful folks, like oil companies with monopoly control to gouge us, murdering Russian dictator's, and Saudi's could just go "f##k" themselves.... And, the economic and environmental battery recharging, range, replacement, and disposal cost issues are largely solved.
