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Re: 4 hours to charge Muni battery but, or even 15 minutes on fasWhat is the economically useful operating range (car, bus, choo-choo)? Not enough for even a small local system for Pasadena apparently.....
Author: BOB2..
Date: 12-06-2022 - 10:21
FUD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I'm back...
>
> Lithium batteries were a game changer for EVs of
> all types. They're long-lived enough, and compact
> and energy-dense enough, to make things practical.
> But ... the most common, and most energy-dense
> types, use flammable electrolyte and several
> expensive and "conflict" minerals. If you don't
> demand the most-dense type, lithium-iron-phosphate
> can be used, which is a bit heavier and less
> energy-dense (though both of those have improved
> considerably in recent years), does not use a
> flammable electrolyte, uses very little of the
> "special" metals, and has a life several times
> that of the more common (for now) LCA and LMC
> batteries. "LFP" is used in practically all new
> electric buses and most of the EV heavy trucks
> that are now on the market. But not (yet) in the
> recently released Tesla Semi.
>
> 150-200 miles range is enough for most urban
> transit use. It covers a days driving. Where it
> isn't quite enough, or the bus is in use for more
> than 8 hours or so (with driver changes), there
> are overhead fast chargers that can be installed
> at layover points and add a substantial charge in
> 15 min or so - as a regular option. There are
> several schemes for doing fast charging at layover
> points using loops in the roadway. California's
> energy mix already has a lot of renewables in it,
> and little coal (any more), so electric buses are
> not only locally clean but globally pretty good.
>
> Electric is now a Regular Production Option for
> most transit (and school!) buses. It's not
> experimental by any stretch. And California
> requires electric buses when new ones are
> purchased (and offers some subsidies for the
> process). So you'll see more of them.
>
> Now if only trolley buses were on the menu...
>
> Elon hates fuel cells because he didn't "invent"
> them. They have excellent characteristics for
> long-distance trucks and buses, with both long
> range (which gets very heavy very quickly with
> batteries - see the 10K# Hummer) and quick
> recharging. Hydrogen is not without its drawbacks,
> but it works, well. And some bus and truck makers
> will deliver their product with any drive/fuel
> train to your order: gasoline, diesel, natural
> gas, battery-electric, hydrogen/fuel cell-electric
> (fuel cell is still electric drive), and/or hybrid
> (fuel cell is usually a hybrid, with a small
> battery to buffer rapidly changing power demand).
>
> Next week, back to trains...where
> battery-electrics are now being sold again, and
> working in the right application.
I wasn't paid for believing the latest hype. I was paid to do the numbers myself. And look at costs versus benefits.
This article on my own local system might help you to rethink your rather simplistic assumption about the operational "shelf ready" issues of availability and reliability of battery powered transit buses (in this case smaller ones) that do not appear to be fully servicable replacements for current CNG and hybrid models.
Pasadena Now Article on ZEV transit mandates transition plan for Pasadena Transit
And, Elon Musk did not invent anything, he was born with an emerald mine, and has made some good investments with his family fortune, in some smart things Spacex, battery companies, and maybe Tesla. Meanwhile Elon has madeand some investments in some pretty dumb things (like hype filled and boring fixed guideways), paying too much for Twitter, and is now starting his own cult and wants to implant chips in our brains.
Battery EV technologies have proven much more costly to operate and still have very serious issues with unreliable based on my limited local experience and learnign curve with Foothill Transit.
I wasn't paid to believe, I was just paid to do the numbers on costs for things like EV's, and some politicians and environmental "true believers" definitely did not like my numbers, when they did not live up to the hype that was promised by vendors and/or the "true believers".....
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I'm back...
>
> Lithium batteries were a game changer for EVs of
> all types. They're long-lived enough, and compact
> and energy-dense enough, to make things practical.
> But ... the most common, and most energy-dense
> types, use flammable electrolyte and several
> expensive and "conflict" minerals. If you don't
> demand the most-dense type, lithium-iron-phosphate
> can be used, which is a bit heavier and less
> energy-dense (though both of those have improved
> considerably in recent years), does not use a
> flammable electrolyte, uses very little of the
> "special" metals, and has a life several times
> that of the more common (for now) LCA and LMC
> batteries. "LFP" is used in practically all new
> electric buses and most of the EV heavy trucks
> that are now on the market. But not (yet) in the
> recently released Tesla Semi.
>
> 150-200 miles range is enough for most urban
> transit use. It covers a days driving. Where it
> isn't quite enough, or the bus is in use for more
> than 8 hours or so (with driver changes), there
> are overhead fast chargers that can be installed
> at layover points and add a substantial charge in
> 15 min or so - as a regular option. There are
> several schemes for doing fast charging at layover
> points using loops in the roadway. California's
> energy mix already has a lot of renewables in it,
> and little coal (any more), so electric buses are
> not only locally clean but globally pretty good.
>
> Electric is now a Regular Production Option for
> most transit (and school!) buses. It's not
> experimental by any stretch. And California
> requires electric buses when new ones are
> purchased (and offers some subsidies for the
> process). So you'll see more of them.
>
> Now if only trolley buses were on the menu...
>
> Elon hates fuel cells because he didn't "invent"
> them. They have excellent characteristics for
> long-distance trucks and buses, with both long
> range (which gets very heavy very quickly with
> batteries - see the 10K# Hummer) and quick
> recharging. Hydrogen is not without its drawbacks,
> but it works, well. And some bus and truck makers
> will deliver their product with any drive/fuel
> train to your order: gasoline, diesel, natural
> gas, battery-electric, hydrogen/fuel cell-electric
> (fuel cell is still electric drive), and/or hybrid
> (fuel cell is usually a hybrid, with a small
> battery to buffer rapidly changing power demand).
>
> Next week, back to trains...where
> battery-electrics are now being sold again, and
> working in the right application.
I wasn't paid for believing the latest hype. I was paid to do the numbers myself. And look at costs versus benefits.
This article on my own local system might help you to rethink your rather simplistic assumption about the operational "shelf ready" issues of availability and reliability of battery powered transit buses (in this case smaller ones) that do not appear to be fully servicable replacements for current CNG and hybrid models.
Pasadena Now Article on ZEV transit mandates transition plan for Pasadena Transit
And, Elon Musk did not invent anything, he was born with an emerald mine, and has made some good investments with his family fortune, in some smart things Spacex, battery companies, and maybe Tesla. Meanwhile Elon has madeand some investments in some pretty dumb things (like hype filled and boring fixed guideways), paying too much for Twitter, and is now starting his own cult and wants to implant chips in our brains.
Battery EV technologies have proven much more costly to operate and still have very serious issues with unreliable based on my limited local experience and learnign curve with Foothill Transit.
I wasn't paid to believe, I was just paid to do the numbers on costs for things like EV's, and some politicians and environmental "true believers" definitely did not like my numbers, when they did not live up to the hype that was promised by vendors and/or the "true believers".....
