 |
Re: Before you innacurately correct me, try actually reading what I wrote.....
Author: BOB2
Date: 03-22-2023 - 22:34
let's nuance that a little Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Though it ends up much the same - US (Calif) is
> not Europe or Japan.
>
> Population of Spain (per BOB2 above: 67 million);
Not true. You probably need to learn how to read, or maybe just reread, what I actually posted, before you decide you need to correct me or tell untruths about what I actually accurately posted.
> (per Wikipedia: 47,325,360)
> Population of California (per Wikipedia:
> 39,185,605)
> and just for fun: Population of Italy (per
> Wikipedia: 58,853,482
> (all 2022-2023 estimates)
>
> Area (sq miles, per Wikipedia)
> Spain: 195,360
> Italy: 116,310
> California: 155,959 (land)
> ...so CA is about 1/2 way between Italy and Spain
> in area
>
> Spain: European portion stretches from 36-44 deg.
> N latitude
> Italy: Stretches from 35-47 deg. N latitude
> California: Stretches from about 33.5-42 deg. N
> latitude
>
> As We aren't Spain noted, Madrid is near the
> center of Spain, and Rome is near the center of
> Italy. California's capitol is well to the north
> of the center point (38.6 N). Most of the large
> cities in Italy and Spain are <400 miles apart. In
> California, the Bay Area and Los Angeles are about
> 400 miles apart, but the distances between other
> large cities (metro area of 1 million or more) are
> shorter - Bay Area-Sacramento about 100 miles; Bay
> Area and Sacramento to Fresno about 180 miles,
> LA-San Diego about 120 miles.
>
> Economically, California is in the same ballpark
> as France, and much bigger than either Italy or
> Spain. California, of course, doesn't need to
> maintain its own defense, since the USA does that
> for them (at some cost).
>
> So ignoring the US for argument sake, why can't
> California do HSR (even Brightline-style
> pseudo-HSR) and widespread railroad
> electrification at least connecting the nearer
> metro areas? Was starting with the hardest project
> and the biggest one, using politically rather than
> well-planned objectives and deliberately crippled
> funding, the best way to serve the most people?
> Rhetorical questions, but we're now saddled with
> the results.
>
> Spain (IMF 2019 percapita GDP US $30,996) and
> Italy (IMF 2019 percapita GDP US $34,997) are on the poorer side of Europe?
Nope, not at all on the poorer side of Europe, Spain (IMF 2019 percapita GDP US $30,996)] and Italy (IMF 2019 percapita GDP US $34,997) are on the poorer side of Europe,
on a per capita basis, at all. A bit below the per capita levels of countries (IMF 2019)like France $44,995, Germany $58,988, or UK $42,747. Maybe a bit poorer per capita than say Denmark $67,218, Norway $81,995, Sweden, or Switzerland $94,696, or Luxembourg $$138,772. But a bit above Latvia $19,824, Poland $18,109, Romania $18,075 which are on the "poorer side" of Europe or at least the EU.
in Europe. Use of trains has been standard
> practice for a long time, and never really went
> away. So HSR could be done incrementally, adding
> to an existing system of passenger rail lines
> biased toward electrified main lines. California,
> like most of the US, essentially started from
> scratch with a few state-supported regional trains
> in the 1980s-2000s, in a society that has long
> valued primarily private transportation and built
> an infrastructure to support it. So no, we're not
> like Europe.
How many European countries have you visited? The system of Autostrada, Autobahns, and Toll Routes in Europe and auto ownership rates in some European countries are near US levels.
>
> California has made a lot of progress, starting
> from near zero, but if not for the politics I
> doubt we would be having serious true-HSR
> discussions for another 50 years yet. So expect
> things to drag along slowly. None of us Boomers
> will likely live long enough for the Valley stuff
> to extend beyond Merced to Bakersfield. If
> technocrats had been in charge, we might have
> gotten something in the LOSSAN and perhaps Capitol
> corridors, better than we have and are likely to
> get now. Too bad, so sad, that didn't happen. What
> can be salvaged and how?
It is in the process of being fixed, albiet slowly. CA is a more accurate comparison, but like Spain, we need to build that based on needs, not gold plated fiascos that have done more harm to public confidence than the progress they have made thus far in building a usable cost effective rail line from Chowchilla to Wasco.
And nope, instead of responsible ethical professionals looking at our real real travel needs and rail service opportunities to design the most cost effective options to meet those needs, we put self serving political "visionaries" and a self serving management model that rewarded lying, bloated costs, and incompetence. And as a result we got the CAHSRA boondoggle that just announced another $10 billion (40%) increase in cost overruns to build 171 miles of the most gold plated HSR project in the world. Heckuva job!
-------------------------------------------------------
> Though it ends up much the same - US (Calif) is
> not Europe or Japan.
>
> Population of Spain (per BOB2 above: 67 million);
Not true. You probably need to learn how to read, or maybe just reread, what I actually posted, before you decide you need to correct me or tell untruths about what I actually accurately posted.
> (per Wikipedia: 47,325,360)
> Population of California (per Wikipedia:
> 39,185,605)
> and just for fun: Population of Italy (per
> Wikipedia: 58,853,482
> (all 2022-2023 estimates)
>
> Area (sq miles, per Wikipedia)
> Spain: 195,360
> Italy: 116,310
> California: 155,959 (land)
> ...so CA is about 1/2 way between Italy and Spain
> in area
>
> Spain: European portion stretches from 36-44 deg.
> N latitude
> Italy: Stretches from 35-47 deg. N latitude
> California: Stretches from about 33.5-42 deg. N
> latitude
>
> As We aren't Spain noted, Madrid is near the
> center of Spain, and Rome is near the center of
> Italy. California's capitol is well to the north
> of the center point (38.6 N). Most of the large
> cities in Italy and Spain are <400 miles apart. In
> California, the Bay Area and Los Angeles are about
> 400 miles apart, but the distances between other
> large cities (metro area of 1 million or more) are
> shorter - Bay Area-Sacramento about 100 miles; Bay
> Area and Sacramento to Fresno about 180 miles,
> LA-San Diego about 120 miles.
>
> Economically, California is in the same ballpark
> as France, and much bigger than either Italy or
> Spain. California, of course, doesn't need to
> maintain its own defense, since the USA does that
> for them (at some cost).
>
> So ignoring the US for argument sake, why can't
> California do HSR (even Brightline-style
> pseudo-HSR) and widespread railroad
> electrification at least connecting the nearer
> metro areas? Was starting with the hardest project
> and the biggest one, using politically rather than
> well-planned objectives and deliberately crippled
> funding, the best way to serve the most people?
> Rhetorical questions, but we're now saddled with
> the results.
>
> Spain (IMF 2019 percapita GDP US $30,996) and
> Italy (IMF 2019 percapita GDP US $34,997) are on the poorer side of Europe?
Nope, not at all on the poorer side of Europe, Spain (IMF 2019 percapita GDP US $30,996)] and Italy (IMF 2019 percapita GDP US $34,997) are on the poorer side of Europe,
on a per capita basis, at all. A bit below the per capita levels of countries (IMF 2019)like France $44,995, Germany $58,988, or UK $42,747. Maybe a bit poorer per capita than say Denmark $67,218, Norway $81,995, Sweden, or Switzerland $94,696, or Luxembourg $$138,772. But a bit above Latvia $19,824, Poland $18,109, Romania $18,075 which are on the "poorer side" of Europe or at least the EU.
in Europe. Use of trains has been standard
> practice for a long time, and never really went
> away. So HSR could be done incrementally, adding
> to an existing system of passenger rail lines
> biased toward electrified main lines. California,
> like most of the US, essentially started from
> scratch with a few state-supported regional trains
> in the 1980s-2000s, in a society that has long
> valued primarily private transportation and built
> an infrastructure to support it. So no, we're not
> like Europe.
How many European countries have you visited? The system of Autostrada, Autobahns, and Toll Routes in Europe and auto ownership rates in some European countries are near US levels.
>
> California has made a lot of progress, starting
> from near zero, but if not for the politics I
> doubt we would be having serious true-HSR
> discussions for another 50 years yet. So expect
> things to drag along slowly. None of us Boomers
> will likely live long enough for the Valley stuff
> to extend beyond Merced to Bakersfield. If
> technocrats had been in charge, we might have
> gotten something in the LOSSAN and perhaps Capitol
> corridors, better than we have and are likely to
> get now. Too bad, so sad, that didn't happen. What
> can be salvaged and how?
It is in the process of being fixed, albiet slowly. CA is a more accurate comparison, but like Spain, we need to build that based on needs, not gold plated fiascos that have done more harm to public confidence than the progress they have made thus far in building a usable cost effective rail line from Chowchilla to Wasco.
And nope, instead of responsible ethical professionals looking at our real real travel needs and rail service opportunities to design the most cost effective options to meet those needs, we put self serving political "visionaries" and a self serving management model that rewarded lying, bloated costs, and incompetence. And as a result we got the CAHSRA boondoggle that just announced another $10 billion (40%) increase in cost overruns to build 171 miles of the most gold plated HSR project in the world. Heckuva job!
