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Re: Here we go again
Author: THAT guy
Date: 05-05-2011 - 22:11
Look, I’m not going to get into some kind of pissing match with you. It’s obvious we disagree on some points, but here are some of the things YOU said:
“An alerter would have prevented the head-end sideswipe of June, 2006, at the east end of Kismet (BNSF Valley Sub).” to which I made my disagreement quite clear based on the competency argument.
Then, you said:
“The presence or absence of a "mash button" is absolutely no indication of whether or not the apparatus is wired into the event recorder….and you can bet your bottom dollar that every locomotive built with a desktop control stand was also built with an event recorder…” which doesn’t seem to bolster your argument that an alerter would have saved the day…which you contradict yourself with “However, no matter how closely you set the alertor up to monitor the crew, there are always going to be occasions that they don't (and can't) save the day.” Which is it Doc?
You then went on:
“The locomotive's event recorder gave every indication that the entire crew had fallen asleep. There were no throttle adjustments, brake applications, nor whistle blowing for quite a while, like at the crossings at the east end of Sharon and the west end of Kismet.”
To which I pointed out that the possibility is strong that he should have been going at least track speed, or faster…but was actually going far slower at the time of impact, indicating some alertness, which you seemed to concur with your statement of that they “Be awake and slow down for the flashing yellow (didn't do a good job of it, though); zone out before the next signal (at W/E Kismet); get woken up by the jolt going over the power switch at W/E Kismet; blow for the private crossing just east of it.”
And as for the brakeman waking up? “Let's seen now, could he have been woken up by the train going into emergency?” This, I can promise you, is nothing more than a sneeze of air from that modern control stand. I’m sorry, but that little fart of air would never wake anyone up, much less to a second unit brakeman stretched out.
So, by your own account they actually weren’t asleep. Just nodding in and out? Or what?
And then we have your suggestion regarding DS instructions/plans: “Hmmm, the flashing yellow you're approaching isn't a clue to call the DS?”
...but you earlier disagreed with the whole notion of letting everyone in on the operating plan by your statement: “On this I don't agree one bit. It's a trait of human nature that if someone tells that you that such-and-such will be so, this information will influence your perceptions of the situation when it arises. In other words, what you expect to see has a great influence on what you perceive when you look at it. This phenomenon is widely recognized in the psychological world and legal community. Out there we run on signal indication, which means we are supposed to look at the signal when it becomes visible and do what it (its indication) tells us. In other words, we are supposed to watch what's going on and act accordingly. It's a very bad idea for the DS to prejudice our perceptions of what's going to transpire.” So again, which way, Doctor?
Hey, Doc, how about sitting in the hole for two hours and then the signal goes clear with no word at all from the DS? You think we're still awake? How about that flashing yellow on the approach to Merced with no word from the DS? Screw it, with YOUR idea, we'll just sew up the whole friggin' town waiting for a signal because that's ALL WE LOOK FOR, and we just DO WHAT IT SAYS, right? And so, if we did tone up the DS (as you now suggest for some reason, and again contradicting yourself), what response do you think we get?? “Single Indication, over!“ Still not helpful, Doc. Not helpful at all.
Communication? You say: “What ever did we do in the days before radios when there were a lot more trains running around?” Nope, sorry. Do the math. Do the research. There are far more ton miles being accomplished in this generation than there was since the peak of WWII. Check it out, I’m sure you won’t be disappointed.
But to answer your question about operating without radios (which puts you well past retirement age, hint, hint) your orders might read something like “ATSF 5266 east take siding Empire meet ATSF 5541 west AND ATSF 2261 west…“ or equivalent language, then that exemplifies the communication I’m talking about It’s called a plan. And you know damn well that if there was any question about what or who, that head end brakey would have his ass out marching to the phone box to get screamed at by said dispatcher. By the way, you can stop trying to old head me. My retirement is not too far off, and I’m done with this. Have nice day.
“An alerter would have prevented the head-end sideswipe of June, 2006, at the east end of Kismet (BNSF Valley Sub).” to which I made my disagreement quite clear based on the competency argument.
Then, you said:
“The presence or absence of a "mash button" is absolutely no indication of whether or not the apparatus is wired into the event recorder….and you can bet your bottom dollar that every locomotive built with a desktop control stand was also built with an event recorder…” which doesn’t seem to bolster your argument that an alerter would have saved the day…which you contradict yourself with “However, no matter how closely you set the alertor up to monitor the crew, there are always going to be occasions that they don't (and can't) save the day.” Which is it Doc?
You then went on:
“The locomotive's event recorder gave every indication that the entire crew had fallen asleep. There were no throttle adjustments, brake applications, nor whistle blowing for quite a while, like at the crossings at the east end of Sharon and the west end of Kismet.”
To which I pointed out that the possibility is strong that he should have been going at least track speed, or faster…but was actually going far slower at the time of impact, indicating some alertness, which you seemed to concur with your statement of that they “Be awake and slow down for the flashing yellow (didn't do a good job of it, though); zone out before the next signal (at W/E Kismet); get woken up by the jolt going over the power switch at W/E Kismet; blow for the private crossing just east of it.”
And as for the brakeman waking up? “Let's seen now, could he have been woken up by the train going into emergency?” This, I can promise you, is nothing more than a sneeze of air from that modern control stand. I’m sorry, but that little fart of air would never wake anyone up, much less to a second unit brakeman stretched out.
So, by your own account they actually weren’t asleep. Just nodding in and out? Or what?
And then we have your suggestion regarding DS instructions/plans: “Hmmm, the flashing yellow you're approaching isn't a clue to call the DS?”
...but you earlier disagreed with the whole notion of letting everyone in on the operating plan by your statement: “On this I don't agree one bit. It's a trait of human nature that if someone tells that you that such-and-such will be so, this information will influence your perceptions of the situation when it arises. In other words, what you expect to see has a great influence on what you perceive when you look at it. This phenomenon is widely recognized in the psychological world and legal community. Out there we run on signal indication, which means we are supposed to look at the signal when it becomes visible and do what it (its indication) tells us. In other words, we are supposed to watch what's going on and act accordingly. It's a very bad idea for the DS to prejudice our perceptions of what's going to transpire.” So again, which way, Doctor?
Hey, Doc, how about sitting in the hole for two hours and then the signal goes clear with no word at all from the DS? You think we're still awake? How about that flashing yellow on the approach to Merced with no word from the DS? Screw it, with YOUR idea, we'll just sew up the whole friggin' town waiting for a signal because that's ALL WE LOOK FOR, and we just DO WHAT IT SAYS, right? And so, if we did tone up the DS (as you now suggest for some reason, and again contradicting yourself), what response do you think we get?? “Single Indication, over!“ Still not helpful, Doc. Not helpful at all.
Communication? You say: “What ever did we do in the days before radios when there were a lot more trains running around?” Nope, sorry. Do the math. Do the research. There are far more ton miles being accomplished in this generation than there was since the peak of WWII. Check it out, I’m sure you won’t be disappointed.
But to answer your question about operating without radios (which puts you well past retirement age, hint, hint) your orders might read something like “ATSF 5266 east take siding Empire meet ATSF 5541 west AND ATSF 2261 west…“ or equivalent language, then that exemplifies the communication I’m talking about It’s called a plan. And you know damn well that if there was any question about what or who, that head end brakey would have his ass out marching to the phone box to get screamed at by said dispatcher. By the way, you can stop trying to old head me. My retirement is not too far off, and I’m done with this. Have nice day.
