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Re: handling with train air
Author: SP5103
Date: 01-01-2014 - 18:20
As far as my stubborn conductor, we were on an isolated division with two train crews, an engine watchman/crew hauler and a handful of section men. Plugging it isn't always the best idea, and the nearest offeeshul was about 200 miles away. Just as likely I would have been the one getting chewed out. A few months later our DSLE gave the conductor a check ride just lite engine. The DSLE pulled the air on him, and the conductor/student engineer almost went out the window. The DSLE refused to even consider signing him off though he was eventually promoted, though I have no clue how he stays awake. This was the same railroad that fired me because I refused to work after falling asleep twice and stalling out for an half an hour both times.
Another shortline I worked for didn't pay for repeaters, so called the conductor on the bag phone as we were leaving for our run north. Conductor was one of the nicest guys you ever met, but couldn't switch a giraffe out of a flock of sheep, so the company expected me to do my job and babysit him. He bumbled around looking for a track warrant form, finally copied it and repeated it back, and by the time he handed it to me I was pulling to a stop at the north switch of our station. Surprise! The warrant restricted us to the south switch to meet another local. The track was straight for miles and I could see the headlight of the opposing local. I grabbed the radio and told them our situation so they held back while we backed into the clear. I looked at the dispatcher book that night and found that the dispatcher had already given them their warrant before shortening us up, so we had overlapping limits regardless. And it also dawned on me that the person dispatching had worked the yard job that day so was out of hours to do any dispatching. If I recall, he wasn't just an offeeshul but one of the family owners - a major shortline operator that shall remain nameless. Whether union or non-union, the only person always concerned with your safety on a railroad is you.
The shortline industry is far different than a Class 1. Some say a shortline engineer isn't qualified to be on a Class 1, but I can personally say the opposite is also true. On most shortlines, you don't have the protection of a union (or job insurance), and you have limited resources to do your job. You are always short on power, so you try to keep what you have alive because it won't disappear at the next crew change. I'm not really interested in running some of the mainline trains they have these days because I can't believe they stay on the track even with DPU, though I would like to at least try DPU on a simulator.
As far as braking ratios - the last info I have handy is from 2006:
All new cars Loaded Car Empty Car
Date Minimum Maximum Minimum Maximum
From 01 February 1999 8.5% 13% Nil 38%
From 01 January 2004 11% 14% 15% 32%
This is NOT the retarding effort, but the theoretical net braking ration which is still based on a 70 psi brake pipe and 50 psi brake cylinder pressure if I recall. I think this is for the total brake shoe effort, but not the friction of the brake shoe itself.
The difference between 8.5% and 13% is actually around 50%, only 27% on the newer ration, so a loaded car can differ 25-50% in braking ratio per fully loaded ton between car designs. Note empties are even worse. Passenger cars and locos are typically braked twice that of an empty freight car, and is why they don't do well DIT and usually arrive with flat wheels unless they are set up correctly to limit BC pressure to far less than normal.
And I do know that some railroads seem to have forgotten safe train handling in favor of fuel conservation and filling out your paperwork properly (the extraneous BS forms, not authority related). I would no doubt be getting regular demerits if I worked for a Class 1, though I probably have more knowledge (but not necessarily experience) than the Mis-manager of ______.
Another thought on shoving the yard track and not having control - as engineer you have to run the train, when it starts to run you is when you will get in trouble. There is another rule here that applies, even though it isn't in air brake and train handling or even says the engineer:
5.3.7 Radio Response
When radio communication is used to make movements, crew members must respond to specific instructions given for each movement. Radio communications for shoving movements must specify the direction and distance and must be acknowledged when distance specified is more than four cars.
Movement must stop within half the distance specified unless additional instructions are received.
This is one of my pet peeves. If the conductor says "Bring em back 16 cars to a joint", "8 now 8", "4 now 4", "2 now 2", "and last one", "and a half", "and that will do - stop" - you are in violation of the rule. "Movement must stop within half the distance ..." is the key here. The engineer must be able to and stop if the movement has gone half the distance specified, not try to begin stopping. I try to teach the conductors to give me a count after we have gone a 1/3 the distance, so instead of 16,8,4,2,1... I should get 16, 12, 8, 5, 3, 2, 1... Remember that like restricted speed, the ability to stop the engineer's responsibility. Another pet peeve are those who usually answer the radio with "Go ahead", with the coup de grace being "Go ahead and come back." I swear the radio is going to get more railroaders killed than any lantern ever did.
My recommendation, you need to figure out with your (hopefully knowledgeable) DSLE a better way to shave into that yard while retaining control. I do hate short trains, I much prefer longer trains because they even out and are far easier to run.
The good Dr. Z and I may agree to disagree once in a while, but I do enjoy the discussion. I'm not always right or have the experience, and it is fun learning something new. I've been working mostly in mechanical the last few years and really miss running. Most of my experience is on the older stuff, it isn't that often the engine is younger than I am.
My view of railroading in modern times - anyone remember the show "Baa Baa Black Sheep" that had the old crusty Sarge that was the mechanic? That is what I feel like sometimes. It is amazing how old concepts get renamed and touted as the best new thing since sliced bread, and most original new ideas involve adding either some kind of electronic device or mandatory form to something simple that worked fine for the last 100 years.
Another shortline I worked for didn't pay for repeaters, so called the conductor on the bag phone as we were leaving for our run north. Conductor was one of the nicest guys you ever met, but couldn't switch a giraffe out of a flock of sheep, so the company expected me to do my job and babysit him. He bumbled around looking for a track warrant form, finally copied it and repeated it back, and by the time he handed it to me I was pulling to a stop at the north switch of our station. Surprise! The warrant restricted us to the south switch to meet another local. The track was straight for miles and I could see the headlight of the opposing local. I grabbed the radio and told them our situation so they held back while we backed into the clear. I looked at the dispatcher book that night and found that the dispatcher had already given them their warrant before shortening us up, so we had overlapping limits regardless. And it also dawned on me that the person dispatching had worked the yard job that day so was out of hours to do any dispatching. If I recall, he wasn't just an offeeshul but one of the family owners - a major shortline operator that shall remain nameless. Whether union or non-union, the only person always concerned with your safety on a railroad is you.
The shortline industry is far different than a Class 1. Some say a shortline engineer isn't qualified to be on a Class 1, but I can personally say the opposite is also true. On most shortlines, you don't have the protection of a union (or job insurance), and you have limited resources to do your job. You are always short on power, so you try to keep what you have alive because it won't disappear at the next crew change. I'm not really interested in running some of the mainline trains they have these days because I can't believe they stay on the track even with DPU, though I would like to at least try DPU on a simulator.
As far as braking ratios - the last info I have handy is from 2006:
All new cars Loaded Car Empty Car
Date Minimum Maximum Minimum Maximum
From 01 February 1999 8.5% 13% Nil 38%
From 01 January 2004 11% 14% 15% 32%
This is NOT the retarding effort, but the theoretical net braking ration which is still based on a 70 psi brake pipe and 50 psi brake cylinder pressure if I recall. I think this is for the total brake shoe effort, but not the friction of the brake shoe itself.
The difference between 8.5% and 13% is actually around 50%, only 27% on the newer ration, so a loaded car can differ 25-50% in braking ratio per fully loaded ton between car designs. Note empties are even worse. Passenger cars and locos are typically braked twice that of an empty freight car, and is why they don't do well DIT and usually arrive with flat wheels unless they are set up correctly to limit BC pressure to far less than normal.
And I do know that some railroads seem to have forgotten safe train handling in favor of fuel conservation and filling out your paperwork properly (the extraneous BS forms, not authority related). I would no doubt be getting regular demerits if I worked for a Class 1, though I probably have more knowledge (but not necessarily experience) than the Mis-manager of ______.
Another thought on shoving the yard track and not having control - as engineer you have to run the train, when it starts to run you is when you will get in trouble. There is another rule here that applies, even though it isn't in air brake and train handling or even says the engineer:
5.3.7 Radio Response
When radio communication is used to make movements, crew members must respond to specific instructions given for each movement. Radio communications for shoving movements must specify the direction and distance and must be acknowledged when distance specified is more than four cars.
Movement must stop within half the distance specified unless additional instructions are received.
This is one of my pet peeves. If the conductor says "Bring em back 16 cars to a joint", "8 now 8", "4 now 4", "2 now 2", "and last one", "and a half", "and that will do - stop" - you are in violation of the rule. "Movement must stop within half the distance ..." is the key here. The engineer must be able to and stop if the movement has gone half the distance specified, not try to begin stopping. I try to teach the conductors to give me a count after we have gone a 1/3 the distance, so instead of 16,8,4,2,1... I should get 16, 12, 8, 5, 3, 2, 1... Remember that like restricted speed, the ability to stop the engineer's responsibility. Another pet peeve are those who usually answer the radio with "Go ahead", with the coup de grace being "Go ahead and come back." I swear the radio is going to get more railroaders killed than any lantern ever did.
My recommendation, you need to figure out with your (hopefully knowledgeable) DSLE a better way to shave into that yard while retaining control. I do hate short trains, I much prefer longer trains because they even out and are far easier to run.
The good Dr. Z and I may agree to disagree once in a while, but I do enjoy the discussion. I'm not always right or have the experience, and it is fun learning something new. I've been working mostly in mechanical the last few years and really miss running. Most of my experience is on the older stuff, it isn't that often the engine is younger than I am.
My view of railroading in modern times - anyone remember the show "Baa Baa Black Sheep" that had the old crusty Sarge that was the mechanic? That is what I feel like sometimes. It is amazing how old concepts get renamed and touted as the best new thing since sliced bread, and most original new ideas involve adding either some kind of electronic device or mandatory form to something simple that worked fine for the last 100 years.
