 |
Re: All sorts of options
Author: Not going to happen
Date: 08-29-2019 - 09:23
Adding Stations decreases velocity, so while you **COULD** add them along the way, chance of that happening is extremely remote.
There is no $$$ for any of the scenarios below, and even if built, there would not be demand. Virtually all transit foamers think that magically, if you build it, they will come. Oregon does not have traffic problems and gridlock that created demand for any of this investment, nor the density of people or jobs at any one place. Vancouver, WA <--> PDX commuters excluded from the discussion.
Extension of WES style service to Salem would seem like a realistic goal, but WES can't get enough riders to meet expected ridership numbers, to possibly increase demand to more hours-per-day or even 7 days a week. Cherriots Bus Service(Salem)runs between Salem and Wilsonville/Tualatin/Barbur Transit Stations, so parallel transit options already exist.
Those that often dream up these things will never be users of it or have to pay for it so it's just a consultants Pipe Dream. Point-to-point transit will dominate for the foreseeable future. Uber/lyft and eventually autonomous vehicles will increase asset utilization and have a paradigm shift is transit options, road safety etc. E-Scooters are an interesting study in just how point-to-point many people want their transit. E-scooters do integrate well with bus/rail transit and increase the reach of that transit option
les Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All sorts of options to speed it up. My guess
> would be the HSR option seeing how Microsoft and
> others are pitching in big bucks for a Cascadia
> HSR line.
----------------------------------------------------
> • The Blue corridor concept would generally follow
> the existing Amtrak Cascades route within or near
> the UPRR right-of-way between Eugene/Springfield
> and Portland. Passenger trains would share track
> with freight trains and have a maximum speed of 79
> miles per hour (mph). Existing and potential new
> station locations included Springfield, Eugene,
> Harrisburg, Tangent, Albany, Salem, Brooks,
> Woodburn,Canby, Oregon City and Portland, Oregon,
> and Vancouver, Washington.
Price Tag for property from UP makes this a never-will-happen option.
-------------------------------------------------
> • The Red corridor concept would parallel
> Interstate 5 (I-5), either within or near the
> current highway right-of-way, starting at a new
> station in Springfield and heading north to
> Vancouver, Washington. The alignment would consist
> of largely new track devoted to intercity
> passenger rail service and have a maximum design
> speed of 110 mph. Potential new and existing
> station locations included Springfield,
> Eugene, Albany, Salem, Keizer, Woodburn,
> Wilsonville, Tualatin and Portland, Oregon, and
> Vancouver, Washington.
Cost to rebuild & replace every overpass and exit too high. Also, South Salem Hills and Terwilliger curves cannot support ROW Grade that would be acceptable.
------------------------------------------------
> • The Purple corridor concept would generally
> follow the existing freight rail line historically
> known as the Oregon Electric Railway (OER) and
> would involve the intermingling of passenger and
> freight rail with
> limited sections that had passenger-only traffic,
> and a maximum design speed of 110 mph. Existing
> and potential new station locations included
> Springfield, Eugene, Harrisburg, Albany, Salem,
> Keizer, Donald, Wilsonville and Tualatin.
This might be the most realistic "path forward" as the State owns the ROW. However, getting the speeds up and working with the PNWR Freight would have to be more like an extension of WES Service, not HSR.
Albany and Salem would need new stations, and options of Keizer(Keizer Station w/ In-N-Out Burger, Volcanos Stadium) Woodburn(Outlet Shopping Center) and existing Wilsonville/Tualatin/Tigard WES Station. A connection from the OE to the Tillamook/West Side Line at Cook to get back into Portland and Union Station would be required. Still have the EAST Portland bottleneck and NIMBY's along the way. If this did not require thru service than it could just end at the connection/extension to WES.
--------------------------------------------------
> • The Yellow corridor concept would originate in
> Springfield, follow the Purple corridor to
> Junction City and proceed to Monroe on a new rail
> alignment. Near Monroe, the alignment would
> connect with a currently abandoned rail grade and
> then proceed north through Corvallis, McMinnville
> and Lake Oswego before connecting to the Purple
> corridor at Tualatin. The Yellow corridor would
> also include options to connect to the Purple or
> Blue corridors in Albany or east of Independence.
> The Yellow concept would involve the intermingling
> of passenger and freight rail, and a maximum
> design speed of 79 mph. Existing and potential new
> station locations included Springfield, Eugene,
> Corvallis, Independence, McMinnville, Newberg and
> Tualatin.
Other than connection to Corvallis(OSU) and Wine Country how is this better than the OE alignment? There are not enough people along the way Much like air travel with "fly over country" Same problem between Eugene and Portland. Bus service such as BOLT BUS are a good model.
-----------------------------------------------
> • The Cascadia High-Speed Rail (HSR) corridor
> concept would consist of a fully electric
> high-speed rail alignment from Eugene to
> Vancouver, Washington, that would be separate from
> existing rail right-ofway and have a maximum
> design speed of 180 mph. Stakeholders introduced
> this concept during the scoping process, and it
> was defined to include electric power locomotives.
> This rail alignment would be similar to the Red
> corridor concept, following the I-5 median
> at-grade where possible from Eugene to Tualatin.
> North of Tualatin, it would travel along a new
> dedicated right-of-way on a combination of tunnel
> and elevated track along the Willamette River to
> the Rose Quarter in Portland, and then north
> across the Columbia River on a new bridge.
Good thing both Oregon and Washington have legalized marijuana, cause that plan is as realistic and traveling on personal poop and emissions free flying unicorns.
-----------------------------------------------
> Existing and potential station locations
> associated with the EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
> E S - 6 Oregon Passenger Rail Project Tier 1 Draft
> Environmental Impact Statement
> OCTOBER 2018
> Cascadia HSR corridor concept included Eugene,
> Albany, Salem, Keizer, Woodburn, Wilsonville,
> Tualatin and Portland, Oregon, and Vancouver,
> Washington.
>
> [www.oregonpassengerrail.org]
> ocuments/deis-publicdraft-cip-online.pdf
>
> Erik H. Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > les Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Of course nobody will ride a line that goes
> > slower than a speeding tortoise-motive.
> > > Once they move the speeds to comparable auto
> > speeds or better
> >
> > Except there is virtually no way to fix the
> > bottleneck that is Portland to Woodburn, unless
> > you build atop the river, relocate the line
> > somewhere else, or take out Highway 99E.
> >
> > Even if you use the Oregon Electric you have
> the
> > issue of getting trains off the OE and into
> Union
> > Station using the UP through East Portland, or
> you
> > have the issue of one station for north of
> > Portland and one for south, which adds to
> travel
> > time and decreases ridership. For a service
> that
> > already struggles with ridership, that would
> not
> > help matters.
There is no $$$ for any of the scenarios below, and even if built, there would not be demand. Virtually all transit foamers think that magically, if you build it, they will come. Oregon does not have traffic problems and gridlock that created demand for any of this investment, nor the density of people or jobs at any one place. Vancouver, WA <--> PDX commuters excluded from the discussion.
Extension of WES style service to Salem would seem like a realistic goal, but WES can't get enough riders to meet expected ridership numbers, to possibly increase demand to more hours-per-day or even 7 days a week. Cherriots Bus Service(Salem)runs between Salem and Wilsonville/Tualatin/Barbur Transit Stations, so parallel transit options already exist.
Those that often dream up these things will never be users of it or have to pay for it so it's just a consultants Pipe Dream. Point-to-point transit will dominate for the foreseeable future. Uber/lyft and eventually autonomous vehicles will increase asset utilization and have a paradigm shift is transit options, road safety etc. E-Scooters are an interesting study in just how point-to-point many people want their transit. E-scooters do integrate well with bus/rail transit and increase the reach of that transit option
les Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All sorts of options to speed it up. My guess
> would be the HSR option seeing how Microsoft and
> others are pitching in big bucks for a Cascadia
> HSR line.
----------------------------------------------------
> • The Blue corridor concept would generally follow
> the existing Amtrak Cascades route within or near
> the UPRR right-of-way between Eugene/Springfield
> and Portland. Passenger trains would share track
> with freight trains and have a maximum speed of 79
> miles per hour (mph). Existing and potential new
> station locations included Springfield, Eugene,
> Harrisburg, Tangent, Albany, Salem, Brooks,
> Woodburn,Canby, Oregon City and Portland, Oregon,
> and Vancouver, Washington.
Price Tag for property from UP makes this a never-will-happen option.
-------------------------------------------------
> • The Red corridor concept would parallel
> Interstate 5 (I-5), either within or near the
> current highway right-of-way, starting at a new
> station in Springfield and heading north to
> Vancouver, Washington. The alignment would consist
> of largely new track devoted to intercity
> passenger rail service and have a maximum design
> speed of 110 mph. Potential new and existing
> station locations included Springfield,
> Eugene, Albany, Salem, Keizer, Woodburn,
> Wilsonville, Tualatin and Portland, Oregon, and
> Vancouver, Washington.
Cost to rebuild & replace every overpass and exit too high. Also, South Salem Hills and Terwilliger curves cannot support ROW Grade that would be acceptable.
------------------------------------------------
> • The Purple corridor concept would generally
> follow the existing freight rail line historically
> known as the Oregon Electric Railway (OER) and
> would involve the intermingling of passenger and
> freight rail with
> limited sections that had passenger-only traffic,
> and a maximum design speed of 110 mph. Existing
> and potential new station locations included
> Springfield, Eugene, Harrisburg, Albany, Salem,
> Keizer, Donald, Wilsonville and Tualatin.
This might be the most realistic "path forward" as the State owns the ROW. However, getting the speeds up and working with the PNWR Freight would have to be more like an extension of WES Service, not HSR.
Albany and Salem would need new stations, and options of Keizer(Keizer Station w/ In-N-Out Burger, Volcanos Stadium) Woodburn(Outlet Shopping Center) and existing Wilsonville/Tualatin/Tigard WES Station. A connection from the OE to the Tillamook/West Side Line at Cook to get back into Portland and Union Station would be required. Still have the EAST Portland bottleneck and NIMBY's along the way. If this did not require thru service than it could just end at the connection/extension to WES.
--------------------------------------------------
> • The Yellow corridor concept would originate in
> Springfield, follow the Purple corridor to
> Junction City and proceed to Monroe on a new rail
> alignment. Near Monroe, the alignment would
> connect with a currently abandoned rail grade and
> then proceed north through Corvallis, McMinnville
> and Lake Oswego before connecting to the Purple
> corridor at Tualatin. The Yellow corridor would
> also include options to connect to the Purple or
> Blue corridors in Albany or east of Independence.
> The Yellow concept would involve the intermingling
> of passenger and freight rail, and a maximum
> design speed of 79 mph. Existing and potential new
> station locations included Springfield, Eugene,
> Corvallis, Independence, McMinnville, Newberg and
> Tualatin.
Other than connection to Corvallis(OSU) and Wine Country how is this better than the OE alignment? There are not enough people along the way Much like air travel with "fly over country" Same problem between Eugene and Portland. Bus service such as BOLT BUS are a good model.
-----------------------------------------------
> • The Cascadia High-Speed Rail (HSR) corridor
> concept would consist of a fully electric
> high-speed rail alignment from Eugene to
> Vancouver, Washington, that would be separate from
> existing rail right-ofway and have a maximum
> design speed of 180 mph. Stakeholders introduced
> this concept during the scoping process, and it
> was defined to include electric power locomotives.
> This rail alignment would be similar to the Red
> corridor concept, following the I-5 median
> at-grade where possible from Eugene to Tualatin.
> North of Tualatin, it would travel along a new
> dedicated right-of-way on a combination of tunnel
> and elevated track along the Willamette River to
> the Rose Quarter in Portland, and then north
> across the Columbia River on a new bridge.
Good thing both Oregon and Washington have legalized marijuana, cause that plan is as realistic and traveling on personal poop and emissions free flying unicorns.
-----------------------------------------------
> Existing and potential station locations
> associated with the EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
> E S - 6 Oregon Passenger Rail Project Tier 1 Draft
> Environmental Impact Statement
> OCTOBER 2018
> Cascadia HSR corridor concept included Eugene,
> Albany, Salem, Keizer, Woodburn, Wilsonville,
> Tualatin and Portland, Oregon, and Vancouver,
> Washington.
>
> [www.oregonpassengerrail.org]
> ocuments/deis-publicdraft-cip-online.pdf
>
> Erik H. Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > les Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Of course nobody will ride a line that goes
> > slower than a speeding tortoise-motive.
> > > Once they move the speeds to comparable auto
> > speeds or better
> >
> > Except there is virtually no way to fix the
> > bottleneck that is Portland to Woodburn, unless
> > you build atop the river, relocate the line
> > somewhere else, or take out Highway 99E.
> >
> > Even if you use the Oregon Electric you have
> the
> > issue of getting trains off the OE and into
> Union
> > Station using the UP through East Portland, or
> you
> > have the issue of one station for north of
> > Portland and one for south, which adds to
> travel
> > time and decreases ridership. For a service
> that
> > already struggles with ridership, that would
> not
> > help matters.
