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Re: Responding To Hogger
Author: OldPoleBurner
Date: 03-07-2009 - 13:34
> For example, someone brought up Ricky Gates and the Gunpow wreck somewhere in one of these discussions
> (perhaps not this thread). The speed of the Metroliner (10-15 mph over the speed limit) was of no real
> consequence. Other than his failure to stop at a stop signal, the biggest single contributing factor to the
> carnage was Amtrak's failure. . . . . .
Oh! do we hear a lot bull-feathers on these threads!
I was the one who brought up the wreck at the Gunpowder River Bridge. It has always remained a solemn reminder to me, as the Gunpow disaster had just happened when I got promoted to "signal engineer", with my first assignment being technical lead over an similar accident investigation. I was instructed to follow the Gunpow investigation closely as part of my new OJT training.
I brought this up to point out that there is no fool proof way whatsoever to prevent accidents. You can do a lot, breaking the potential chain of events leading to accidents, in as many places as possible. But you will never succeed 100 percent. Nothing man does is ever 100 percent. And for every foolproof mechanism you could invent, there will always be a bigger fool - such as Ricky Gates.
Ricky Gates was operating a light engine move in cab signal territory at well over the speed limit for freight trains. He did not simply run a red. They were having a football party in the cab, complete with television, alcohol, and dope. He managed to speed, only because the ATC's bells and whistles were hurting their pot infested brains to the point that they tampered with the onboard ATC devices - broke the seals and put them out of service. Not only that - they took a hammer to the warning horns, destroying them.
So as they approached the Gunpower River Bridge, where the r.o.w. goes from four main tracks to two across the bridge, they were livin' large - paying absolutely no attention to the successive approach aspects they received (they also claimed green signals), then blasted by the red at Gunpow, pranged the switch at 67mph, a matter of seconds in front of an Amtrak at 128mph, which had the route. (Interestingly, that accident killed 16 and injured 40, 585 walked away; vs the 25 killed, hundreds injured, few walkaways - at Chatsworth; probably because poor crashworthyness design in Metrolink's cars)
Mr Gates and his party favorites caused that accident and were sent to prison, because of their tampering with railroad safety devices - a federal crime. So what are ya' gonna do - put robots in the cab to forcibly prevent misbehavior any any sort. Some fool will outsmart the thing - no matter what!
> Other than his failure to stop at a stop signal, the biggest single contributing factor to the carnage was Amtrak's
> removal of the PPR standard derailing track (Amtrak didn't want the "extra" expense of maintaining a switch).
> This turned what would have a minor red signal violation into a major disaster. But this aspect was quietly overlooked
> in the ensuing brouhaha.
More bull-feathers!
While installed once by signal engineers because of mindless rote repetition, mainline derails became controversial decades ago. It turns out they do much harm, and no good whatsoever. Preferred, is what in some circles is called "the go to hell track" - a lead to capture and stop an errant train, or at least direct the wreckage away from anything else, should you run off the end. But in many cases, there just plain isn't room, or no safe place to direct the wreckage (at Gunpow for instance). In such cases, nothing at all, is better then a derail, which scatters the wreckage in all directions uncontrollably. In this case, Amtrak would have hit the wreckage anyway! Without the derail, at least there is a chance that the errant train won't collide with anything before it stops; with the derail, collision by something with the wreckage is almost certain. And no, this aspect was not quietly overlooked in the ensuing brouhaha - it was irelevant.
> We have, however, been saddled with the random drug testing program
Because of this incident alone? - Bull Feathers! ---- Leading up to it were hundreds of similar incidents - in all industries. Indeed, just months after Gunpow, and perhaps the final straw, was the tower operator on the NEC that routed another Amtrak into a work crew doing track alignment. He had forgotten to place the block on the traffic lever that would have prevented this. After the accident, he abandoned the tower, leaving his still smoldering marijuana cigarette on the tower desk. His name was on the FBI wanted list for years. He was even featured on "America's Most Wanted".
Fact is, though shocking to most of us, a significant enough segment of the American populace simply cannot be trusted with other peoples lives. We must therefore do what we can to sift out the flyshit from the pepper. That means drug testing. Now, obviously, that is not enough. My I suggest, as I have before, that nothing will do better than just plain old vigilance on the part of everyone - especially management.
> PTC isn't workable yet, and it may not make the arbitrary deadlines in the new law
Now Wabtec, those guys who have our politicians ears, feeding them full of self serving half truths, claim it's already the new sliced bread. But you are right on this one. It won't even come close to being ready until the military releases its restrictions on the higher definition GPS that is currently prohibited for civilian use (for national security reasons). That may never happen. Even if it does, the GPS will still have to be used in conjunction with more conventional cab signally anyway.
Not that the railroads want it to anyway - they don't. Technology capable of full PTS functionality is already widely deployed throughout the world, including much of mainline America. But the railroads have steadfastly opposed using it for PTS like functions, for many decades. Indeed, it has been over sixty years since the I.C.C. imposed the requirement for speeds eighty and over. The railroad's universal response: slow the trains down! Right then and there, they demonstrated an unwillingness to do anything they don't absolutely have to do - no matter who dies. The I.C.C. obviously goofed (as gvt often does); it should have made the non-ATC speed limit 39mph. Then the railroad would of had to put it in by 1951. There probably wouldn't have been an accident at Chatworth, or thousands of others either.
But moderate that a bit; by remembering that the Gunpow accident, with its tampered safety equipment, would have happened anyway, whether or not PTC-ATC-ATP-etc was in use. The only thing that could have prevented Gunpow was for ordinary citizens, such as Ricky Gate, or you and me, to just plain be responsible in our duties, and for managements to be responsible in theirs - check and balance.
OPB
> (perhaps not this thread). The speed of the Metroliner (10-15 mph over the speed limit) was of no real
> consequence. Other than his failure to stop at a stop signal, the biggest single contributing factor to the
> carnage was Amtrak's failure. . . . . .
Oh! do we hear a lot bull-feathers on these threads!
I was the one who brought up the wreck at the Gunpowder River Bridge. It has always remained a solemn reminder to me, as the Gunpow disaster had just happened when I got promoted to "signal engineer", with my first assignment being technical lead over an similar accident investigation. I was instructed to follow the Gunpow investigation closely as part of my new OJT training.
I brought this up to point out that there is no fool proof way whatsoever to prevent accidents. You can do a lot, breaking the potential chain of events leading to accidents, in as many places as possible. But you will never succeed 100 percent. Nothing man does is ever 100 percent. And for every foolproof mechanism you could invent, there will always be a bigger fool - such as Ricky Gates.
Ricky Gates was operating a light engine move in cab signal territory at well over the speed limit for freight trains. He did not simply run a red. They were having a football party in the cab, complete with television, alcohol, and dope. He managed to speed, only because the ATC's bells and whistles were hurting their pot infested brains to the point that they tampered with the onboard ATC devices - broke the seals and put them out of service. Not only that - they took a hammer to the warning horns, destroying them.
So as they approached the Gunpower River Bridge, where the r.o.w. goes from four main tracks to two across the bridge, they were livin' large - paying absolutely no attention to the successive approach aspects they received (they also claimed green signals), then blasted by the red at Gunpow, pranged the switch at 67mph, a matter of seconds in front of an Amtrak at 128mph, which had the route. (Interestingly, that accident killed 16 and injured 40, 585 walked away; vs the 25 killed, hundreds injured, few walkaways - at Chatsworth; probably because poor crashworthyness design in Metrolink's cars)
Mr Gates and his party favorites caused that accident and were sent to prison, because of their tampering with railroad safety devices - a federal crime. So what are ya' gonna do - put robots in the cab to forcibly prevent misbehavior any any sort. Some fool will outsmart the thing - no matter what!
> Other than his failure to stop at a stop signal, the biggest single contributing factor to the carnage was Amtrak's
> removal of the PPR standard derailing track (Amtrak didn't want the "extra" expense of maintaining a switch).
> This turned what would have a minor red signal violation into a major disaster. But this aspect was quietly overlooked
> in the ensuing brouhaha.
More bull-feathers!
While installed once by signal engineers because of mindless rote repetition, mainline derails became controversial decades ago. It turns out they do much harm, and no good whatsoever. Preferred, is what in some circles is called "the go to hell track" - a lead to capture and stop an errant train, or at least direct the wreckage away from anything else, should you run off the end. But in many cases, there just plain isn't room, or no safe place to direct the wreckage (at Gunpow for instance). In such cases, nothing at all, is better then a derail, which scatters the wreckage in all directions uncontrollably. In this case, Amtrak would have hit the wreckage anyway! Without the derail, at least there is a chance that the errant train won't collide with anything before it stops; with the derail, collision by something with the wreckage is almost certain. And no, this aspect was not quietly overlooked in the ensuing brouhaha - it was irelevant.
> We have, however, been saddled with the random drug testing program
Because of this incident alone? - Bull Feathers! ---- Leading up to it were hundreds of similar incidents - in all industries. Indeed, just months after Gunpow, and perhaps the final straw, was the tower operator on the NEC that routed another Amtrak into a work crew doing track alignment. He had forgotten to place the block on the traffic lever that would have prevented this. After the accident, he abandoned the tower, leaving his still smoldering marijuana cigarette on the tower desk. His name was on the FBI wanted list for years. He was even featured on "America's Most Wanted".
Fact is, though shocking to most of us, a significant enough segment of the American populace simply cannot be trusted with other peoples lives. We must therefore do what we can to sift out the flyshit from the pepper. That means drug testing. Now, obviously, that is not enough. My I suggest, as I have before, that nothing will do better than just plain old vigilance on the part of everyone - especially management.
> PTC isn't workable yet, and it may not make the arbitrary deadlines in the new law
Now Wabtec, those guys who have our politicians ears, feeding them full of self serving half truths, claim it's already the new sliced bread. But you are right on this one. It won't even come close to being ready until the military releases its restrictions on the higher definition GPS that is currently prohibited for civilian use (for national security reasons). That may never happen. Even if it does, the GPS will still have to be used in conjunction with more conventional cab signally anyway.
Not that the railroads want it to anyway - they don't. Technology capable of full PTS functionality is already widely deployed throughout the world, including much of mainline America. But the railroads have steadfastly opposed using it for PTS like functions, for many decades. Indeed, it has been over sixty years since the I.C.C. imposed the requirement for speeds eighty and over. The railroad's universal response: slow the trains down! Right then and there, they demonstrated an unwillingness to do anything they don't absolutely have to do - no matter who dies. The I.C.C. obviously goofed (as gvt often does); it should have made the non-ATC speed limit 39mph. Then the railroad would of had to put it in by 1951. There probably wouldn't have been an accident at Chatworth, or thousands of others either.
But moderate that a bit; by remembering that the Gunpow accident, with its tampered safety equipment, would have happened anyway, whether or not PTC-ATC-ATP-etc was in use. The only thing that could have prevented Gunpow was for ordinary citizens, such as Ricky Gate, or you and me, to just plain be responsible in our duties, and for managements to be responsible in theirs - check and balance.
OPB
